Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign this is the Nathan's and Roncast, the podcast about the songcraft and musicianship behind the songs we love. I'm Aaron Nathans and if you're in the Sunshine State, Michael and I would love to see you at the South Florida folk Festival on February 2. There are lots of great artists that will be playing there all weekend and it's one of my favorite little folk festivals. More information is available at our website nathans and ronstadt.com this is the second half of our interview with our friend, the great John Flynn. In this episode, we take a deep dive into his song Prison Bible. He talks about the meaning he derives from spending time with people who are or who have been in prison. We talk about how a prison Bible functions as more than just a book, how time in prison can serve as a period of self reflection and self discovery, and how prisoners can be really good listeners. I was surprised to hear John say that he never really fit into the folk music genre. To me, he is the embodiment of folk music. Maybe there's some truth to the adage that we are all our own worst critics. In the same vein, John, Michael and I share an observation about how we all carry the world on our shoulders, but we're also unable to see our own heads. It's true. Here's the rest of our interview with John Flynn.
I love the sound of your voice, by the way. I've always loved it. You have this air when you're performing of, I don't want to say the voice of God, but certainly the voice of, you know, sorry, God. But it's the idea that there's grit. You bring a grit to your songwriting that is really unique and special and that you're not just singing about the problems of this world, you're seeing them. You're there, you're walking in their footsteps. And I want to talk about this song. How do you find God in a prison?
[00:02:02] Speaker B: In the person right in front of you? Going back to Father G at homeboy, he said people always ask him, do you bring Jesus to these men? And he says, no, they bring Jesus to me. And he's helped me a lot over the years. He and brother David have been very patient with a lot of my questions. Again, it's not about proselytizing or trying to convince somebody that a certain path is the way. G will say that you don't go in to the prison to change anybody. You go there to be changed by going in open enough that their life is actually going to affect your heart it's going to touch your heart. That's a really powerful thing. That's a human connection that is sensed. It is known on a level that we can't even understand. When someone allows you to reach them in a deep way, you know, it's. It's a sign of deep respect. In a place where respect is denied, systematically denied, dignity is denied. So that's a. That's a really powerful thing. One of my first volunteers. I've got about six or seven volunteers now in New Beginnings. One of my first was a sociology professor from Resinis College named Tom Gallagher. And we stood out at the car after his first night at Gander Hill Prison. And he said, I've never seen that before. And I said, what? He said, I've never seen men listen to each other. You know, he said, usually when men are quiet, it's because they're thinking of what they're going to say when it's their turn to talk. And he said, these guys are all leaning in. They're all engaging in active listening. And I hadn't heard that phrase back then. Since then, it's become real popular. But he said, that's mutually dignifying, you know, because by bestowing your attention and acknowledging the dignity of the speaker, you know, you're doing something that's essentially healing in that space to. To him. You're also acknowledging your own power to heal. So it lifts both of you. And more and more, I've realized that it's really nothing that I go there to say or do. It's just by going there to be open to the people that I meet. I believe that. That people change because of those relationships. I know I change because of those relationships. And thank you for the voice of God thing, that I don't think anybody has ever made that connection. And, you know, I'm not always pleased with the sound of my own voice. So it's. I think that' everybody has. That's a. That's a common dynamic.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: It's a voice of strength, you know, but, of course, you being the person who is the only person who can't hear you sing live except through, you know, playback. The rest of us appreciate it.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: I mentioned that podcast yesterday. It was funny that I can't even remember who came out with it. But he said your head is the only part of your body that you can't see.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: You know, like, you can. You can see your feet, you can see your hands, you can see, you know, but you can't see your head. What you see with your head is everything. So everything is on top of your shoulders. Right. You know, like, you are connected with the whole universe right here. When you said that, you can't. You can't hear yourself sing. All you can do is take in what's going on around you while you're singing. But it's. It's something that I've never found an equal to as a human being. That. That feeling of connecting with an audience that way. It's as close to magic as any other human endeavor, I. I guess. And that's why I keep at it. It's not. It's not for the. That are coming in.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: You know, I can agree with all of that deep inside, because one of the things I always have noticed is, you know, someone might ask, do you meditate? Or I might wonder, why don't I meditate? And I realize when I play music, I close my eyes and go to that place.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:28] Speaker C: There's something so spiritual about closing your eyes and just being with the sounds of the instrument or the song that you're singing. And then when. When you look beyond that and the fact that you've got an audience every so often, because sometimes you play to two people in a room, and sometimes you've got a who room, and sometimes you have people half listening, and sometimes it's a room that's listening at every word, you know, every little thing you do. And each situation has this relationship, and you're trying to connect with people, and each one is special because when people aren't listening, you just close your eyes and go within yourself. And a lot of times that brings people to you. When people are listening fully, you can, like I always say, you can use space to your advantage. You can, like, take time in between phrases. You can really work the music in a way that's so uniquely special and connected because that audience is paying attention. And then the in between offers some combination of that. But I think whatever it does for us as musicians, it really does feed our souls. And I think we're lucky because it's not always that way. As you say, it's. It's not like it's one of the things you. You don't know anything else that brings that type of thing to you.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:37] Speaker C: This brings me to my question. When you're talking about learning a lot from those you work with within the prisons and getting out of prison and trying to reintegrate into a society that doesn't really support someone who's been in prison, do you ever find the chance to Let them know that they helped you in more ways than they could know.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Well, hopefully I'm able to convey that the guys that I know through this work are among the most humble people on the planet. So it takes a lot to get them to take credit for something, you know, because they will just say, you know, they'll be skeptical when you say me visiting you in jail or us getting together for a cup of coffee on the outside when you get home is essentially a selfish endeavor because I get more out of it than I'm putting into it. I've got a guy every morning at about 6:30. He texts me, you know, good morning. Have a great day, Mr. Flynn. You know, an exclamation point. And he. And he's on his way to his job, and it's just such a cool way to start the day. He's been out of prison about three months now, and it was a long. It was a long sentence. And there's so much joy, there's so much gratitude at the opportunities that he's being given and the fact that he's been deprived for so long of things that I take for granted in my life, you know, but I see them through his eyes, so it constantly reminds me of how blessed I am. So, yeah, we're always trying to let guys know how much we get from them and how important they are. I was just reading recently that Bill W. In his work with the 12 steps, he would recommend that you go out and you work with other alcoholics. He didn't know if he was helping anybody else stay sober, but by working with them, by trying to help them, he was strengthening his own recovery. That service was a very important part of making yourself whole and well. So, like, you know, we got one guy right now, and I'm really excited about it. And it took me a long time to get the state of Delaware to allow a guy who'd done significant prison time, or anybody who'd done prison time to go back in as a volunteer and run a New Beginnings meeting. We got a guy who did 13 or 14 years in prison, and now he's. He goes in on Tuesday nights with us. And the man's a total rock star in that prison because, first of all, he can speak on a level that I can't. I'm very blessed that I've never shared those experiences. I remember the first night he was there, and he said, fellas, every one of us knows that when you sleep in that rack, you turn your face to the wall, because that's the Only place that nobody can see the tears, you know, And I had been doing. I had been doing these groups for 19 years. I had never had anybody say in group, every one of us cries, every single one of us. And nobody called BS on this man because. Because he'd been there. Another guy in our group recently went in front of the commutation board, and one of the questions they asked him is, who's your mentor? Who's your role model? And he cited our volunteer. He said, this is my hero. This is the guy who proves to me that I can have a life worth looking up to. You know, I can. I can live a life that I'd be proud of because, you know, I see that he's done it. Of all the stuff that I'm kind of. Some of the stuff's worked out, some of it hasn't worked out, but I'm really excited that. And I think this is going to be the model for my group. Ongoing. If this work survives past me, it'll be returning citizens who are running these groups in prisons for each other, you know, for their incarcerated brothers and sisters. So, sorry, I got off on a tangent.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: No, that's. That's beautiful. Beautiful and really inspiring just to hear some of what you said about the gentleman who was convinced to go back in and talk to folks, because I think just that one comment alone, I'll be thinking about that one for quite a while, so.
[00:10:05] Speaker B: And he said no to me. You know, when I first. When I first mentioned it to him, he said, absolutely not. I'll never go back in that place. You know, you couldn't drag me in there. And about three months later, he called me and he said, okay. You know, that seed had just continued to grow inside of and nagged at him. You know, I remember the first night he went back in, man, he was. He was so tense. He was so. Just. You could see the anxiety. But he made a point of saying hello to every single offender. He passed lines of guys in the hallways, like the COs are taking them places to chapel or. Or back to the POD or whatever. And he would. Individually, he would say hello to every single person, every single stranger that he saw. You know, dozens and dozens of guys. And he turned to me, he said, they're all me. They're all me. So, like, you know, we started out a while back saying, does this affect your music? How could it not affect your music? You know, just the stuff that you learn as a human being. Not necessarily to tell the stories from a prison perspective, but it shapes how you perceive the people that you walk by on the sidewalk each day.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: When you said in the song, Jesus has no truer disciple than the lonely man who reads a prison Bible, what do you mean by that?
[00:11:09] Speaker B: In prison, there's not much that's your own. Your stuff can be tossed by a guard, your CEO looking, they'll flip your mattress, they'll go through all your personal effects looking for contraband, you know, and they have to do that for a number of reasons. But the Bible and the Quran are two books that are given a little bit of extra respect. They won't toss a Bible on the floor, for instance. It will be handled a little bit more gently. And because of that, guys use it as a filing cabinet. So they'll keep their important papers or photographs or whatever inside their Bible. And that's, that's one thing I learned early, that people that carried that book were carrying their whole life in there. And that kind of inspired the song. And, you know, I've just seen that a lot of guys, prison can be and usually is a terrible experience, but it also can be a liminal experience because you're going into, into the desert now and you're going to find out what's what about who you are as a human being. And a lot of guys begin a profound, interior journey. You know, a lot of guys for the first time in their life will begin to read, like, read deeply, read lots of books, ask big questions, and they'll go into their faith in a new way because they're calling out from the pit. You know, when you're in despair and no human being can help you, you're calling beyond that human help. And so I've seen profound change happen in guys because of the depth of that despair. That desperation, that deep loneliness, that longing for hope can be very powerful and can lead to incredible change. And that's why I think it can put you in a very receptive space for a relationship with God. You know, you can go the other way entirely, man. You can bit, you can, you know, just get by and sharpen your game and become cynical and bitter and, and just plan to be a better criminal. You know, when you get back to the street, you know, it's up to you. But the guys that end up in New Beginnings and Next Step tend to be guys who are fatig tired of the brokenness of their life. I think Jesus, if you don't get to know your own wounds, you're tempted to despise the wounded. These guys, the guys who have grappled with their own brokenness tend to be the last ones to judge other people, to look down on other people. So anyway, I think that's as good a definition of a disciple as you can come up with.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: How does the program find the right people? How do the right people find the program? You talked about people who are cynical. Certainly not everybody that comes through the prison system is going to reach that level of humility that's required to change.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Brother David set it up so that it's not transactional. So anybody that comes to our weekly group is not being given anything in return. They're not being given good time or having their sentence reduced in any way. There's no special perks attached to it. So that eliminates a lot of people. And that's been upheld by the offenders themselves, by the guys in prison. You can't be mandated into my group. You can't be court appointed. Matter of fact, they've tried. The judge has sentenced them to be in New Beginnings. And I had to go and say, if you guys start doing that, then we. We won't be able to hold these groups because our guys will not open up and speak in front of somebody who's not here for the right reasons. So it's all voluntary. And that kind of is self selecting. The only people on the journey are the people that want to be on the journey. Not necessarily the people that need to be on the journey, you know, but the people that want to be.
[00:14:22] Speaker C: Is there anything more about the song you want to introduce?
[00:14:25] Speaker B: No, I mean, I. I'm. I always hoped somebody liked this song. And you guys are the first ones who seem to, so. But I always do this song in my concerts, when I play in prisons. This song always seems to get a real powerful reaction.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: What a great song it is. I mean, it's so just real. You're right. You can't help but know exactly what you're talking about. That when somebody's reached the end of their rope and they've had everything stripped from them in the end, there's just the possibility that they can ask for help.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: One of the verses, I sent the lyrics to Brother David and he wrote back, remember Jesus spent the night before he died inside a cell. Like he knows what it's. So I wrote that in as a verse, and it helps the guys to remember that in a sense, it all comes down to knowing you're not alone. You're not going through this alone. You're not the first person that's dealt with this alone. And this Isn't everything? This moment is going to lead to another moment.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Thank you for being a part of this. It's always a pleasure. It's been too long since I've had a chance to talk to you.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: John Flynn, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Aaron, Michael, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for listening to my rambling answers. I'm trying to form these answers in my mind as I'm speaking, and it's always coming out exactly as I'd like. But I feel like I, you know, I'm with friends here and you are, absolutely.
[00:15:47] Speaker C: John may have felt like he was rambling a little bit, but we felt like he was saying exactly what people need to hear. So thank you, John, for being our friend. Thank you for being a musician. Thank you for being someone who speaks the truth. And we want to leave you with his song called Prison Bible.
[00:16:04] Speaker D: Jesus has no truer disciple Than the lonely man who reads a prison Bible his cellmate wears a skull cap and quotes from the Qur'an but his mama raised him up to be a Christian man and he'll call brother anyone who in humility bows his head and asks for heaven's help on bended knee he'd strayed from the righteous path and lost the faith he'd known Ever since he was a small boy in his mama's home but in his darkest hour he'd found Though he'd gravely sinned the God he turned his back on Never turned his back on him Jesus has no truer disciple Than the lonely man who reads a prison Bible when he's deep within the choking darkness of despair he turns like the good thief on the cross to Christ in prayer and offers up the desolation Jesus knew too well Having spent the night before he died inside a cell Like Simon of Cyrene he tries to shoulder up the load for others who lack Jesus stumble on that Calvary road When the cross they carry grows to burdensome to bear.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: He.
[00:18:12] Speaker D: Looks in their faces and he sees the Savior Jesus has no truer disciple Than the lonely man who reads a prison Bible he keeps his prized possessions.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: In between its tattered covers in Luke.
[00:19:07] Speaker D: 2:35 he folds the letters from his mother Matthew 7:9 guards well the postcard from his son and Acts 12 is saved for the note that so far hasn't come he knows that he's done wrong and that he's got to pay a price but trusts that Jesus mercy waits for him in paradise the kingdom is a journey that begins within the heart.
No prison walls can ever stop that journey once it starts.
Jesus has no truer disciple than the lonely man who reads a prison Bible.
Jesus has no truer disciple than the lonely man who reads the prison Bible.
[00:20:23] Speaker C: You've been listening to the Nathan's and Roncast found on all platforms where you listen to your podcasts. If you want to find out more about us or maybe our music, go to www.nathan's andronstadt.com. it's like Nathan's like the hot dog stand and Ronstadt like Linda and so please check us out. We would love to see you out in the wild. So hopefully we put a smile on her face. Hopefully we got you thinking and hopefully you're excited to hear what we have for you next week.
